The Pension Crisis Is Worse Than You Think

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • 80zephyr
    Senior Member
    • Saturday, January 3, 2015
    • 19074

    #1

    The Pension Crisis Is Worse Than You Think

    When I was on the village board in the 1980's, we talked about setting up pensions for staff. The consensus from the financial planners was that you could figure 7% growth...indefinitely.

    Its sad that people don't understand compounding, especially financial planners.



    “Currently, many pension funds, like the one in Houston, are scrambling to slightly lower return rates, issue debt, raise taxes or increase contribution limits to fill some of the gaping holes of underfunded liabilities in their plans. The hope is such measures combined with an ongoing bull market, and increased participant contributions, will heal the plans in the future.

    This is not likely to be the case.

    This problem is not something born of the last ‘financial crisis,’ but rather the culmination of 20-plus years of financial mismanagement.

    An April 2016 Moody’s analysis pegged the total 75-year unfunded liability for all state and local pension plans at $3.5 trillion. That’s the amount not covered by current fund assets, future expected contributions, and investment returns at assumed rates ranging from 3.7% to 4.1%. Another calculation from the American Enterprise Institute comes up with $5.2 trillion, presuming that long-term bond yields average 2.6%.

    With employee contribution requirements extremely low, averaging about 15% of payroll, the need to stretch for higher rates of return have put pensions in a precarious position and increases the underfunded status of pensions.”

    But it is actually worse than we originally thought as Aaron Brown recently penned:

    “Today, the hard stop is five to 10 years away, within the career plans of current officials. In the next decade, and probably within five years, some large states are going to face insolvency due to pensions, absent major changes.

    If we extrapolate from the past, rather than use promises in the state budget, current employees plus the state will contribute about $25 billion over those seven years, which could provide another few years before the till is empty. But it will also add around $60 billion of future liabilities to current employees. The system probably breaks down before the pension fund gets to zero, for example if assets were to fall below $30 billion while projected future liabilities exceeded $300 billion. Even the most optimistic people would have to admit the situation is unsustainable. This could happen in three years in a bad stock market, or perhaps 10 with good stock returns. But fund assets are so low relative to payouts that good returns aren’t that helpful.

    The next phase of public pension reform will likely be touched off by a stock market decline that creates the real possibility of at least one state fund running out of cash within a couple of years. The math says that tax increases and spending cuts cannot do much.“

    But the problem is not just in the United States, but the mismanagement of assets combined with irrational and flawed return expectations has spread globally. Visual Capitalist recently took a look at the global pension problem stating:

    “According to an analysis by the World Economic Forum (WEF), there was a combined retirement savings gap in excess of $70 trillion in 2015, spread between eight major economies…

    The WEF says the deficit is growing by $28 billion every 24 hours – and if nothing is done to slow the growth rate, the deficit will reach $400 trillion by 2050, or about five times the size of the global economy today.”
    Rest at link.

    Mark
    Race Card: A tool of the intellectually weak and lazy when they cannot counter a logical argument or factual data.

    "Liberals have to stop insisting that the world is what they want it to be instead of the way it is." - Bill Maher

    Political correctness is ideological fascism. It’s the antithesis of freedom. Dr. Piper

    Gender is not a "Social Construct", it is an outgrowth of biological reality.
  • 80zephyr
    Senior Member
    • Saturday, January 3, 2015
    • 19074

    #2
    This article mentions government pensions. My wife works for the Feds, and she has her own retirement account that they match. I don't know how wide spread that situation is.

    Mark
    Race Card: A tool of the intellectually weak and lazy when they cannot counter a logical argument or factual data.

    "Liberals have to stop insisting that the world is what they want it to be instead of the way it is." - Bill Maher

    Political correctness is ideological fascism. It’s the antithesis of freedom. Dr. Piper

    Gender is not a "Social Construct", it is an outgrowth of biological reality.

    Comment

    • Tom Servo
      Area Man
      • Tuesday, October 1, 2013
      • 5898

      #3
      Aren't these things just glorified Ponzi schemes, like Social Security?
      “Any sufficiently advanced capitalism is indistinguishable from rent seeking.” ~ =j

      Comment

      • Lady Marva
        Senior Member
        • Wednesday, June 17, 2015
        • 13321

        #4
        That "rate" has been a lie for many years. Hasn't been above about 2% for decades.

        Comment

        • 80zephyr
          Senior Member
          • Saturday, January 3, 2015
          • 19074

          #5
          Originally posted by Tom Servo View Post
          Aren't these things just glorified Ponzi schemes, like Social Security?
          A 7% return in 10 years means you would practically be doubling your money. You tell me.

          Mark
          Race Card: A tool of the intellectually weak and lazy when they cannot counter a logical argument or factual data.

          "Liberals have to stop insisting that the world is what they want it to be instead of the way it is." - Bill Maher

          Political correctness is ideological fascism. It’s the antithesis of freedom. Dr. Piper

          Gender is not a "Social Construct", it is an outgrowth of biological reality.

          Comment

          • scott
            Go-to Guru
            • Tuesday, October 1, 2013
            • 15799

            #6
            Originally posted by Tom Servo View Post
            Aren't these things just glorified Ponzi schemes, like Social Security?
            Yes. That's the union scam.
            "Faith is nothing but a firm assent of the mind : which, if it be regulated, as is our duty, cannot be afforded to anything but upon good reason, and so cannot be opposite to it."
            -John Locke

            "It's all been melded together into one giant, authoritarian, leftist scream."
            -Newman

            "Grievance groups are playing King of the Hill."
            -Newman

            Comment

            • Adam
              The way to a woman's heart is through her taste buds.
              • Tuesday, October 1, 2013
              • 16885

              #7
              Originally posted by Tom Servo View Post
              Aren't these things just glorified Ponzi schemes, like Social Security?
              Originally posted by scott View Post
              Yes. That's the union scam.
              Managed properly, pensions can be very solid and sustainable, just like other forms of retirement savings.

              The problem is those two first words. With alarming regularity, particularly municipal pensions are not managed properly at all. Rather than having people with some knowledge of financials managing them, they instead have some bureaucrat who typically blundered into the position as some sort of patronage job and they haven't a clue what they're doing. Instead, these things are managed as a political slush fund rather than retirement savings that should grow and be sustained over time.

              Social Security has no actual P/E ratio, no actual ROI, no real fundamentals at all. Pension plans can and should have fundamentals in place like diversification and someone actively monitoring the instruments in them. It's just that often they don't, or at least they don't have someone who has the slightest clue what they're doing at the helm. As such, lots of pension plans are just sort of garbage-in, garbage-out setups that aren't fundamentally stable and ultimately require infusions of cash from somewhere, either workers or taxpayers or both, or, in the case of the relatively few private institutions who still have pension plans, some sort of diverting of profits into the plan to keep it solvent in the event of mismanagement.

              Pensions do share with Social Security the fundamental flaw of being an indefinite defined-benefit plan. What that means is that is your pension pays you $1000/month, it does so forever, regardless of how much you've ever actually put into it and how much it's grown. So, for the sake of simple math, let's say that you worked for the water department for twenty years and contributed $100/month over those years. So, you've paid in $1200 X 20 years = $24,000, and we'll say that your employer matched you over that time, so $48,000. During that time, your pension earned 1% per month (again, simple math here), so at the end of your 20 years, you have roughly $200K banked for your retirement. You draw that at $1000/month while still earning interest on it, which is great, but you will have gone all the way through that $200K in about 30 months. Then what? Well, a pension just keeps on paying you until you die (depends upon how the actual pension is set up, but again for KISS theory, let's go with that), so if you live for another 30 years, you're sucking down funds that have to come from somewhere.

              This is why defined-benefit plans are dropping out of favor very quickly and getting replaced with things like 401(k) plans instead.
              It's been ten years since that lonely day I left you
              In the morning rain, smoking gun in hand
              Ten lonely years but how my heart, it still remembers
              Pray for me, momma, I'm a gypsy now

              Comment

              • scott
                Go-to Guru
                • Tuesday, October 1, 2013
                • 15799

                #8
                Originally posted by Adam View Post
                Managed properly, pensions can be very solid and sustainable, just like other forms of retirement savings.

                The problem is those two first words. With alarming regularity, particularly municipal pensions are not managed properly at all. Rather than having people with some knowledge of financials managing them, they instead have some bureaucrat who typically blundered into the position as some sort of patronage job and they haven't a clue what they're doing. Instead, these things are managed as a political slush fund rather than retirement savings that should grow and be sustained over time.

                Social Security has no actual P/E ratio, no actual ROI, no real fundamentals at all. Pension plans can and should have fundamentals in place like diversification and someone actively monitoring the instruments in them. It's just that often they don't, or at least they don't have someone who has the slightest clue what they're doing at the helm. As such, lots of pension plans are just sort of garbage-in, garbage-out setups that aren't fundamentally stable and ultimately require infusions of cash from somewhere, either workers or taxpayers or both, or, in the case of the relatively few private institutions who still have pension plans, some sort of diverting of profits into the plan to keep it solvent in the event of mismanagement.

                Pensions do share with Social Security the fundamental flaw of being an indefinite defined-benefit plan. What that means is that is your pension pays you $1000/month, it does so forever, regardless of how much you've ever actually put into it and how much it's grown. So, for the sake of simple math, let's say that you worked for the water department for twenty years and contributed $100/month over those years. So, you've paid in $1200 X 20 years = $24,000, and we'll say that your employer matched you over that time, so $48,000. During that time, your pension earned 1% per month (again, simple math here), so at the end of your 20 years, you have roughly $200K banked for your retirement. You draw that at $1000/month while still earning interest on it, which is great, but you will have gone all the way through that $200K in about 30 months. Then what? Well, a pension just keeps on paying you until you die (depends upon how the actual pension is set up, but again for KISS theory, let's go with that), so if you live for another 30 years, you're sucking down funds that have to come from somewhere.

                This is why defined-benefit plans are dropping out of favor very quickly and getting replaced with things like 401(k) plans instead.
                $200K earning 1% per month means that at $1000 per month drawdown it keeps making money.
                "Faith is nothing but a firm assent of the mind : which, if it be regulated, as is our duty, cannot be afforded to anything but upon good reason, and so cannot be opposite to it."
                -John Locke

                "It's all been melded together into one giant, authoritarian, leftist scream."
                -Newman

                "Grievance groups are playing King of the Hill."
                -Newman

                Comment

                • Adam
                  The way to a woman's heart is through her taste buds.
                  • Tuesday, October 1, 2013
                  • 16885

                  #9
                  Originally posted by scott View Post
                  $200K earning 1% per month means that at $1000 per month drawdown it keeps making money.
                  Fair enough. I should have made it something like a half of a percent per month or something. I was just trying to make it simple math for Tom's sake, the greater point being that defined-benefit plans are generally unsustainable in the long run.
                  It's been ten years since that lonely day I left you
                  In the morning rain, smoking gun in hand
                  Ten lonely years but how my heart, it still remembers
                  Pray for me, momma, I'm a gypsy now

                  Comment

                  • scott
                    Go-to Guru
                    • Tuesday, October 1, 2013
                    • 15799

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Adam View Post
                    Fair enough. I should have made it something like a half of a percent per month or something. I was just trying to make it simple math for Tom's sake, the greater point being that defined-benefit plans are generally unsustainable in the long run.
                    Yes that's true.

                    Here's a good description of the problem:

                    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-pension-funds
                    "Faith is nothing but a firm assent of the mind : which, if it be regulated, as is our duty, cannot be afforded to anything but upon good reason, and so cannot be opposite to it."
                    -John Locke

                    "It's all been melded together into one giant, authoritarian, leftist scream."
                    -Newman

                    "Grievance groups are playing King of the Hill."
                    -Newman

                    Comment

                    Working...