You Were Duped Into Saying Yes. Is That Still Consent?

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  • 80zephyr
    Senior Member
    • Saturday, January 3, 2015
    • 19074

    #1

    You Were Duped Into Saying Yes. Is That Still Consent?

    Interesting.

    Imagine the following hypothetical situation: Frank and Ellen meet at a night course and end up getting drinks together after class several times. The drinks start to feel like dates, so Ellen asks Frank if he is married, making it clear that adultery is a deal-breaker for her. Frank is married, but he lies and says he is single. The two go to bed. Is Frank guilty of rape?

    To most people, even those who consider Frank a dishonorable creep, the answer is clearly no. The law agrees: In most American jurisdictions, Frank is not liable for any tort or crime, let alone something as serious as sexual assault.

    But why? This question has been a source of contention among legal experts for decades, ever since the law professor Susan Estrich argued that the law of rape should prohibit fraud to procure sex, just as the law of theft prohibits fraud to secure money. Ellen did not consent to have sex with a married man, the argument goes, so the sex she had with Frank was not consensual.

    To many feminist legal scholars, the law’s failure to regard sexual fraud as a crime — when fraud elsewhere, such as fraud in business transactions, is taken to invalidate legal consent — shows that we are still beholden to an antiquated notion that rape is primarily a crime of force committed against a chaste, protesting victim, rather than primarily a violation of the right to control access to one’s body on one’s own terms.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/05/o...l-consent.html

    Mark
    Race Card: A tool of the intellectually weak and lazy when they cannot counter a logical argument or factual data.

    "Liberals have to stop insisting that the world is what they want it to be instead of the way it is." - Bill Maher

    Political correctness is ideological fascism. It’s the antithesis of freedom. Dr. Piper

    Gender is not a "Social Construct", it is an outgrowth of biological reality.
  • Celeste Chalfonte
    apostate
    • Saturday, October 5, 2013
    • 27897

    #2
    So, what are your thoughts?
    "Since the historic ruling, the Lovings have become icons for equality. Mildred released a statement on the 40th anniversary of the ruling in 2007: 'I am proud that Richard’s and my name is on a court case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment, the fairness, and the family that so many people, Black or white, young or old, gay or straight, seek in life. I support the freedom to marry for all. That’s what Loving, and loving, are all about.'." - Mildred Loving (Loving v. Virginia)

    Comment

    • 80zephyr
      Senior Member
      • Saturday, January 3, 2015
      • 19074

      #3
      Originally posted by Celeste Chalfonte View Post
      So, what are your thoughts?
      Until I read this, I never really thought about it. I can see both see both sides.

      I'm 50/50 on this. I think.

      Mark
      Race Card: A tool of the intellectually weak and lazy when they cannot counter a logical argument or factual data.

      "Liberals have to stop insisting that the world is what they want it to be instead of the way it is." - Bill Maher

      Political correctness is ideological fascism. It’s the antithesis of freedom. Dr. Piper

      Gender is not a "Social Construct", it is an outgrowth of biological reality.

      Comment

      • Frostbit
        But only once
        • Wednesday, October 2, 2013
        • 22330

        #4
        Originally posted by 80zephyr View Post

        I'm 50/50 on this.

        Mark
        Is that like being Bi?
        If it pays, it stays

        Comment

        • 80zephyr
          Senior Member
          • Saturday, January 3, 2015
          • 19074

          #5
          Originally posted by Frostbit View Post
          Is that like being Bi?
          Are you making a point?

          Mark
          Race Card: A tool of the intellectually weak and lazy when they cannot counter a logical argument or factual data.

          "Liberals have to stop insisting that the world is what they want it to be instead of the way it is." - Bill Maher

          Political correctness is ideological fascism. It’s the antithesis of freedom. Dr. Piper

          Gender is not a "Social Construct", it is an outgrowth of biological reality.

          Comment

          • Frostbit
            But only once
            • Wednesday, October 2, 2013
            • 22330

            #6
            Originally posted by 80zephyr View Post
            Are you making a point?

            Mark
            Not really.
            If it pays, it stays

            Comment

            • scott
              Go-to Guru
              • Tuesday, October 1, 2013
              • 15799

              #7
              It's certainly interesting, but the piece starts with a strong statement and ends with a "meh" statement:

              Of course, my empirical discovery does not resolve the question of whether our laws should criminalize sex-by-deception. It merely shows that if you have conflicted feelings about the case of Frank and Ellen, it may be because you think that his deception does not fully invalidate her consent. Whether lawmakers ought to disregard that intuition and insist on treating such cases as nonconsensual remains an open question. There might be good reasons, after all, for the law to discipline us against following our gut instincts.
              In my opinion it isn't rape if she consented to have sex (and it's still his wife and baby even if she lied about being a virgin) regardless of the ancillary circumstances and deceptions. Can the man claim rape if she stuffed her bra? What if she got him drunk knowing he would not ride home with her otherwise?

              Framing this argument in a business context shows the bias, as does the use of pronouns in the article. I don't think it's rape and I don't think sex is always transactional. The author clearly does want to imply that it is rape and she frames sex as a transaction. Hence in her logic, business law applies.
              "Faith is nothing but a firm assent of the mind : which, if it be regulated, as is our duty, cannot be afforded to anything but upon good reason, and so cannot be opposite to it."
              -John Locke

              "It's all been melded together into one giant, authoritarian, leftist scream."
              -Newman

              "Grievance groups are playing King of the Hill."
              -Newman

              Comment

              • gary m
                Reprobate
                • Wednesday, October 2, 2013
                • 8016

                #8
                I am waiting for the first fraud rape charge when a guy gets plastered and takes home a trans woman thinking it was a biological woman (or is that womxn now, I get so confused).
                We are so fucked.

                Comment

                • Celeste Chalfonte
                  apostate
                  • Saturday, October 5, 2013
                  • 27897

                  #9
                  Originally posted by gary m View Post
                  I am waiting for the first fraud rape charge when a guy gets plastered and takes home a trans woman thinking it was a biological woman (or is that womxn now, I get so confused).
                  No, they just try to use that as an excuse for murder. And at one time, got away with it.
                  "Since the historic ruling, the Lovings have become icons for equality. Mildred released a statement on the 40th anniversary of the ruling in 2007: 'I am proud that Richard’s and my name is on a court case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment, the fairness, and the family that so many people, Black or white, young or old, gay or straight, seek in life. I support the freedom to marry for all. That’s what Loving, and loving, are all about.'." - Mildred Loving (Loving v. Virginia)

                  Comment

                  • JB
                    Don't believe the hype
                    • Wednesday, October 2, 2013
                    • 4408

                    #10
                    A man lied to a woman to get sex??? I'm Shocked!!! I hope they don't make the punishment for this retroactive.

                    And if we're going down this road, a woman lies about her appearance every time she steps out of the house.

                    ie, Chris Rock, women are the biggest liars. Caution - Profanity:

                    Once you vote yourselves into Communism, you must shoot your way out.

                    Science that cannot be questioned is propaganda.

                    Comment

                    • daveman
                      We deal in lead.
                      • Sunday, November 10, 2013
                      • 1609

                      #11
                      "To many feminist legal scholars..."

                      I'll start giving a damn what feminist legal scholars say when they start admitting women can commit rape.
                      “I do not aim with my hand; he who aims with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
                      I aim with my eye.

                      "I do not shoot with my hand; he who shoots with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
                      I shoot with my mind.

                      "I do not kill with my gun; he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father.
                      I kill with my heart.”

                      The Gunslinger Creed, Stephen King, The Dark Tower

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