Russia and Ukraine

[phillygirl]

Does Russia, via Putin, have a right to worry about NATO in his side yard?

[Celeste Chalfonte]

Does Russia, via Putin, have a right to worry about NATO in his side yard?

Since neither NATO nor Ukraine, to the best of my knowledge, has ay history of invading sovereign countries, I'd say no. The only reason to be concerned that your neighbor is joining a mutual defense organization is if you're planning to invade them, which is not, in my mind, a legitimate concern.

[Billy Jingo]

Not really. NATO has been on Russia’s border since 1949.

Putin’s concern, not to be confused with Russia’s concern, is the prosperity of the West getting closer.

It is not a fear of military invasion. It is a fear of envy.

[phillygirl]

Does Russia have the right to support ethnic Russians in Ukraine that wish to separate from the Ukraine?

[Celeste Chalfonte]

Does Russia have the right to support ethnic Russians in Ukraine that wish to separate from the Ukraine?

I'm an ethnic Scot. If all the ethnic Scots on the ESM decided they wanted to separate from the US, would it be OK for the UK to send troops into the US to facilitate that?

[Billy Jingo]

Does Russia have the right to support ethnic Russians in Ukraine that wish to separate from the Ukraine?

“Right” is a meaningless term in this context. Are you asking if Russia’s cause is just?

[phillygirl]

I'm an ethnic Scot. If all the ethnic Scots on the ESM decided they wanted to separate from the US, would it be OK for the UK to send troops into the US to facilitate that?

What if two border counties in Arizona, most of whom were Mexican by ethnicity, speak Spanish, and closely identify with Mexico, want to be part of Mexico (again)? And to boot, Mexicos capital was contained in one of those two counties before the U.s. annexed them. Would Mexico be wrong in supporting those counties who want to come back to the Motherland?

[phillygirl]

“Right” is a meaningless term in this context. Are you asking if Russia’s cause is just?

Replace understandable with just then.

[Celeste Chalfonte]

What if two border counties in Arizona, most of whom were Mexican by ethnicity, speak Spanish, and closely identify with Mexico, want to be part of Mexico (again)? And to boot, Mexicos capital was contained in one of those two counties before the U.s. annexed them. Would Mexico be wrong in supporting those counties who want to come back to the Motherland?

Supporting them how? Militarily? Yes, Mexico would be wrong to invade a US state.

[Adam]

Since neither NATO nor Ukraine, to the best of my knowledge, has ay history of invading sovereign countries, I'd say no. The only reason to be concerned that your neighbor is joining a mutual defense organization is if you're planning to invade them, which is not, in my mind, a legitimate concern.

^^^ What she said.

[Adam]

Does Russia have the right to support ethnic Russians in Ukraine that wish to separate from the Ukraine?

"Support" by conquering land? No. If there were some manner of ethnic cleansing or something, that might be a different story, but that's not been happening in Ukraine. They're not perfect: the government there is a mess by any Western standard, relations aren't ideal in a lot of circumstances, but the place has been generally peaceful among themselves for thirty-odd years.

There's tons of room in Russia. If you're in Ukraine and feel that you're an ethnic Russian, then pack your shit and go north. No one is stopping you.

[Newman]

"Support" by conquering land? No. If there were some manner of ethnic cleansing or something, that might be a different story, but that's not been happening in Ukraine. They're not perfect: the government there is a mess by any Western standard, relations aren't ideal in a lot of circumstances, but the place has been generally peaceful among themselves for thirty-odd years.

There's tons of room in Russia. If you're in Ukraine and feel that you're an ethnic Russian, then pack your shit and go north. No one is stopping you.

We are romanticizing Ukraine right now, turning Ukrainians into something akin to perfect Noble Savages. And likewise we are simplifying the rot of this conflicts, boiling it down to Putin Bad, shades of the crap Trump endured (and still does). We are swimming in propaganda, probably from all corners.

Amidst the complications we are skimming over are the demography of Russia, and the strategic importance of ground access to ports.

It seems clear to me, at least, that Putin is capitalizing on Biden's frailty, and that he's caught by surprise at the backlash. I think Biden baited Putin into attacking, but I'm not sure it was deliberate, or stupid.

I think we are getting a good view of the world without a competently led U.S. superpower in the driver's seat. At least at this moment in human history.

[phillygirl]

Supporting them how? Militarily? Yes, Mexico would be wrong to invade a US state.

So let's say Mexico doesn't invade, but instead simply says to those in Arizona..."we're here if you need us, and just in case the U.S. starts cracking down on you, we're going to get Canada and England to show you some support as well. We're not invading at all, nope, not doing that, but we have a lot of stuff over here, just in case, and we're going to move that stuff, just a few airplanes and missiles and what not, a little closer to the border. Good luck with your attempts at freedom. Again, we're just here if you need us, nothing for the U.S. to worry about, at all, just a little support for our friends."

[80zephyr]

Come on people.Putin believes that Russia still has influence in the world. And with every new NATO country, Russia loses some "power". I have already posted an article explaining why Putin is doing what he is doing.

Mark

[Celeste Chalfonte]

So let's say Mexico doesn't invade, but instead simply says to those in Arizona..."we're here if you need us, and just in case the U.S. starts cracking down on you, we're going to get Canada and England to show you some support as well. We're not invading at all, nope, not doing that, but we have a lot of stuff over here, just in case, and we're going to move that stuff, just a few airplanes and missiles and what not, a little closer to the border. Good luck with your attempts at freedom. Again, we're just here if you need us, nothing for the U.S. to worry about, at all, just a little support for our friends."

If Mexico and Canada have never in modern history invaded another country, and aren't sending bombers across the border, we would be within reason to object to those actions, but not to strike out pre-emptively.

But now you're making up fairy tales, because that's not what happened.