ABANDONED THREAD

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  • Celeste Chalfonte
    apostate
    • Saturday, October 5, 2013
    • 27897

    #1

    ABANDONED THREAD

    I'm not going to hang around and post all of my usual answers to all of your usual comments. We all know each others' opinions on this issue. This column just put the matter succinctly in and in the context of current events, so I post it in faint hopes that at least one person will read it and see the logic.

    You probably missed this one, after all most news coverage told people that Governor Walker signed a "right to work" bill. According to the accounts, this bill means that workers will no longer be forced to pay a fee to the union that represents them. This was presented as a victory for workers' rights over the power of unions. In fact, it was about denying the people of Wisconsin the freedom of contract.

    This is not just a question of the best slogan for a marketing campaign; it's a question of how we think about workers' rights. Walker and his supporters want people to believe that a basic right of workers is being denied if they are forced to pay a union representation fee. This is nonsense if we think about the issue in its full context.

    The problem is supposed to be that some workers dislike unions in general, or the union at a specific workplace, and don't think they should have to pay a representation fee to the union to hold a job. But there are often many things about a job that workers don't like.

    Often employers demand that workers work bad shifts, starting their shift late at night or work on weekends. Employers can demand that workers come in on Thanksgiving or that they put in overtime. They might even do it with just a few minutes' notice, forcing workers to make rush plans for child care, skip doctors' appointments, or cancel other commitments.

    In this context, the right to work means the right to work somewhere else. If a worker doesn't like an employer making extensive and unpredictable demands on their time, the Scott Walkers of the world tell them to find a different job.

    The same applies to issues like dress codes on the job. Many employers require workers to wear childish uniforms or silly hats. They may prohibit workers from wearing comfortable clothes in order to maintain their idea of a disciplined workplace. Workers often resent such rules, but again the Scott Walkers of the world would tell them to work someplace else.

    And many employers require workers to be kind to the point of obsequiousness with customers. If workers don't feel comfortable wishing a person a good day and asking after their family, as required by the boss, the Scott Walkers of the world tell them to find a different job.

    In short, the proponents of "right to work" are fine with almost any demand that an employer wants to make on workers, including pay cuts. Their simple answer is that if you don't like it, work somewhere else.

    The Scott Walkers of the world only have a problem when the demand is coming from fellow workers. The idea of a union contract is that workers collectively are reaching an agreement with their employer that imposes a set of rules for the workplace. The Scott Walkers are only concerned about workers' rights when the issue is enforcement of a contract between workers and their employee.

    In the case where the demand on the worker comes from a contract between workers and their employer, Walker is insisting that the government has to step in and say that the worker has a right to work at that workplace; the contract is not valid. So the score from Walker is that if the issue is bad pay, bad hours, bad work conditions, or bad treatment from the employer, the worker has the right to work somewhere else.

    But if the issue is that the worker has to pay for their share of the cost of representing the workers at the company, then he is suddenly concerned about their right to work at that particular job. And, Walker is so concerned that he wants the government to prevent a contract freely negotiated between the workers and the employer from being enforced.

    There is nothing about workers' "right to work" in this story. Scott Walker and his backers could not give a damn about workers' rights. This is a bill about taking away workers' freedom of contract in a way that will weaken their bargaining. It is a lie to gloss over this fact and pretend there is some issue of individual rights at stake. There isn't.
    LINK.
    "Since the historic ruling, the Lovings have become icons for equality. Mildred released a statement on the 40th anniversary of the ruling in 2007: 'I am proud that Richard’s and my name is on a court case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment, the fairness, and the family that so many people, Black or white, young or old, gay or straight, seek in life. I support the freedom to marry for all. That’s what Loving, and loving, are all about.'." - Mildred Loving (Loving v. Virginia)
  • Gingersnap
    Resident stylistic consultant
    • Tuesday, October 1, 2013
    • 24058

    #2
    Then change union procedures so that 100% of dues is used in the local area for contract negotiation, strike pay, and widows and orphans. Not one dime of it goes to support lobbyists at the national level, pay off politicians (anywhere), or mount non-local political campaign support. Require local campaign support to be confined to employment issues - not some general backing for Democrat candidates who also rah-rah the Union.

    I'm not holding my breath for that, though. If unions can support amnesty for illegal aliens even when both legal and illegal immigration is suppressing wages, breaking down social services, and undercutting their membership, it's unlikely they will respond to milder reforms.
    "Alexa, slaughter the fatted calf."

    Comment

    • scott
      Go-to Guru
      • Tuesday, October 1, 2013
      • 15799

      #3
      I read it and I disagree.

      If unions are so great, why aren't you in one?
      "Faith is nothing but a firm assent of the mind : which, if it be regulated, as is our duty, cannot be afforded to anything but upon good reason, and so cannot be opposite to it."
      -John Locke

      "It's all been melded together into one giant, authoritarian, leftist scream."
      -Newman

      "Grievance groups are playing King of the Hill."
      -Newman

      Comment

      • Celeste Chalfonte
        apostate
        • Saturday, October 5, 2013
        • 27897

        #4
        Originally posted by scott View Post
        I read it and I disagree.

        If unions are so great, why aren't you in one?
        I am, sort of. Two State Bar Associations. And I have been: AFSCME, SEIU. If there were an attorney's union in my field, I would be.
        "Since the historic ruling, the Lovings have become icons for equality. Mildred released a statement on the 40th anniversary of the ruling in 2007: 'I am proud that Richard’s and my name is on a court case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment, the fairness, and the family that so many people, Black or white, young or old, gay or straight, seek in life. I support the freedom to marry for all. That’s what Loving, and loving, are all about.'." - Mildred Loving (Loving v. Virginia)

        Comment

        • scott
          Go-to Guru
          • Tuesday, October 1, 2013
          • 15799

          #5
          Originally posted by Celeste Chalfonte View Post
          I am, sort of. Two State Bar Associations. And I have been: AFSCME, SEIU. If there were an attorney's union in my field, I would be.
          Bar Associations are not unions. You never have to strike in solidarity, you never have to work where you are told, you aren't subject to collective bargaining, and as a percentage of earnings the "dues" are minimal - and VOLUNTARY.

          As to being a former union member, I rest my case. You are no longer in a job that requires union membership by choice, yours! That's all I wish for everyone.
          "Faith is nothing but a firm assent of the mind : which, if it be regulated, as is our duty, cannot be afforded to anything but upon good reason, and so cannot be opposite to it."
          -John Locke

          "It's all been melded together into one giant, authoritarian, leftist scream."
          -Newman

          "Grievance groups are playing King of the Hill."
          -Newman

          Comment

          • Celeste Chalfonte
            apostate
            • Saturday, October 5, 2013
            • 27897

            #6
            Originally posted by scott View Post
            Bar Associations are not unions. You never have to strike in solidarity, you never have to work where you are told, you aren't subject to collective bargaining, and as a percentage of earnings the "dues" are minimal - and VOLUNTARY.

            As to being a former union member, I rest my case. You are no longer in a job that requires union membership by choice, yours! That's all I wish for everyone.
            No, bar dues are most definitely NOT voluntary. If you don't pay them, you're not eligible to practice law. That's true in almost all states now, definitely including Florida. And as a percentage of earnings, there have been times when my annual Bar dues were a substantially greater burden than union dues ever were.

            I don't cross picket lines and my employer knows it.

            It's true we aren't "subject to" collective bargaining. Too bad.

            No, I'm no longer in a job that PERMITS union membership. Again, too bad.
            "Since the historic ruling, the Lovings have become icons for equality. Mildred released a statement on the 40th anniversary of the ruling in 2007: 'I am proud that Richard’s and my name is on a court case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment, the fairness, and the family that so many people, Black or white, young or old, gay or straight, seek in life. I support the freedom to marry for all. That’s what Loving, and loving, are all about.'." - Mildred Loving (Loving v. Virginia)

            Comment

            • scott
              Go-to Guru
              • Tuesday, October 1, 2013
              • 15799

              #7
              Originally posted by Celeste Chalfonte View Post
              No, bar dues are most definitely NOT voluntary. If you don't pay them, you're not eligible to practice law. That's true in almost all states now, definitely including Florida. And as a percentage of earnings, there have been times when my annual Bar dues were a substantially greater burden than union dues ever were.

              I don't cross picket lines and my employer knows it.

              It's true we aren't "subject to" collective bargaining. Too bad.

              No, I'm no longer in a job that PERMITS union membership. Again, too bad.
              What law bars you from being a current member or SEIU?

              What law bars you from being an SEIU lawyer?

              Would you be fired if you joined SEIU tomorrow?
              "Faith is nothing but a firm assent of the mind : which, if it be regulated, as is our duty, cannot be afforded to anything but upon good reason, and so cannot be opposite to it."
              -John Locke

              "It's all been melded together into one giant, authoritarian, leftist scream."
              -Newman

              "Grievance groups are playing King of the Hill."
              -Newman

              Comment

              • Celeste Chalfonte
                apostate
                • Saturday, October 5, 2013
                • 27897

                #8
                Originally posted by scott View Post
                What law bars you from being a current member or SEIU?

                What law bars you from being an SEIU lawyer?

                Would you be fired if you joined SEIU tomorrow?
                How do you propose that I join a union when I'm not in a covered job?
                "Since the historic ruling, the Lovings have become icons for equality. Mildred released a statement on the 40th anniversary of the ruling in 2007: 'I am proud that Richard’s and my name is on a court case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment, the fairness, and the family that so many people, Black or white, young or old, gay or straight, seek in life. I support the freedom to marry for all. That’s what Loving, and loving, are all about.'." - Mildred Loving (Loving v. Virginia)

                Comment

                • scott
                  Go-to Guru
                  • Tuesday, October 1, 2013
                  • 15799

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Celeste Chalfonte View Post
                  How do you propose that I join a union when I'm not in a covered job?
                  Organize your workplace.



                  Can't find what you are looking for? Maybe we can help. Try our site search or sitemap. If you're lost, let us know!
                  "Faith is nothing but a firm assent of the mind : which, if it be regulated, as is our duty, cannot be afforded to anything but upon good reason, and so cannot be opposite to it."
                  -John Locke

                  "It's all been melded together into one giant, authoritarian, leftist scream."
                  -Newman

                  "Grievance groups are playing King of the Hill."
                  -Newman

                  Comment

                  • Celeste Chalfonte
                    apostate
                    • Saturday, October 5, 2013
                    • 27897

                    #10
                    From your link:

                    SEIU Local 1021 organizers will walk you through the process of forming a union if your workplace is eligible....

                    SEIU Local 1021 represents public sector workers and private nonprofit workers.
                    We have 5 lawyers, one of whom is the owner, and one of whom is semi-retired and part-time. The rest of us are eligible for partnership whenever we are ready to go from salary to shareholder. We just aren't eligible for union membership.

                    SEIU - in fact, no union in this area - has staff attorneys in my field. I have done work for them, when I was part of a union-side labor law firm. Even there, our support staff were union, but other than public-sector staff attorneys, I don't know of any unions for attorneys.

                    What is this bug up your ass about me joining a union? This isn't some limousine-liberal "do as I say, not as I do" thing. When I've had the opportunity to join a union, I have done so. If I were to take a public-sector attorney job, I'd do so again. I'm 4th-generation union, everything from railroad to shirt-factory worker to telephone operator to carpenter to county social worker and probably a few I've missed. We disagree on this issue, fine. Don't pull some bullshit trying to make me look like a hypocrite, because it's a lie and worse yet, you KNOW it's a lie.
                    "Since the historic ruling, the Lovings have become icons for equality. Mildred released a statement on the 40th anniversary of the ruling in 2007: 'I am proud that Richard’s and my name is on a court case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment, the fairness, and the family that so many people, Black or white, young or old, gay or straight, seek in life. I support the freedom to marry for all. That’s what Loving, and loving, are all about.'." - Mildred Loving (Loving v. Virginia)

                    Comment

                    • scott
                      Go-to Guru
                      • Tuesday, October 1, 2013
                      • 15799

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Celeste Chalfonte View Post
                      From your link:



                      We have 5 lawyers, one of whom is the owner, and one of whom is semi-retired and part-time. The rest of us are eligible for partnership whenever we are ready to go from salary to shareholder. We just aren't eligible for union membership.

                      SEIU - in fact, no union in this area - has staff attorneys in my field. I have done work for them, when I was part of a union-side labor law firm. Even there, our support staff were union, but other than public-sector staff attorneys, I don't know of any unions for attorneys.

                      What is this bug up your ass about me joining a union? This isn't some limousine-liberal "do as I say, not as I do" thing. When I've had the opportunity to join a union, I have done so. If I were to take a public-sector attorney job, I'd do so again. I'm 4th-generation union, everything from railroad to shirt-factory worker to telephone operator to carpenter to county social worker and probably a few I've missed. We disagree on this issue, fine. Don't pull some bullshit trying to make me look like a hypocrite, because it's a lie and worse yet, you KNOW it's a lie.
                      Not a lie, but I stand corrected. Thank you.

                      The reason I have a bug up my ass about it is that far too many people advocate against right to work but then somehow live their lives exactly opposite. Lawyers being above unionization is a good example - apparently you are the exception to the rule. Most lawyers with whom I have discussed this issue claim that they don't need to be unionized because they are educated. I also noticed that paid protesters for SEIU are not unionized. When I've asked about that I was told that these were not "jobs" and therefore not eligible for unionization.

                      I really think your opinion on unions would change if you ever lost significant money due to a solidarity strike or if you had your personal mail show up in the hands of union organizer sending you a message. The message is that since the post office and the police are union, they will look the other way.
                      "Faith is nothing but a firm assent of the mind : which, if it be regulated, as is our duty, cannot be afforded to anything but upon good reason, and so cannot be opposite to it."
                      -John Locke

                      "It's all been melded together into one giant, authoritarian, leftist scream."
                      -Newman

                      "Grievance groups are playing King of the Hill."
                      -Newman

                      Comment

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