What really killed COVID-19 patients

[Gramps]

I fear you're SOL, my man, because that shit IS pandemic.

I have witnessed Lanie profess stupidity for so many years I will just post 'I object to stupidity' from this point forward

[Lanie]

Did you even read the article? AFAIK, the pneumonia vaccine is not effective against bacterial pneumonia that was introduced through the ventilator, misdiagnosed or undiagnosed, and not treated because nobody saw the pneumonia due to racing around in circles screaming "COVID! COVID!"

Nobody claims there were no deaths due to COVID. Nobody that I know of objects to reasonable and effective precautions. Counterproductive pseudo-medical theatrics demonstrably did make the entire situation far worse than it had to be.

If you don't know anybody against taking reasonable precautions, then it sounds like you might be living in a bubble out west. Maybe.

Doctors have been acknowledging pneumonia the entire time. That's because COVID itself doesn't lead out to death. It usually has to cause something else to happen. I remember when this all started hearing about people in the hospital with COVID/pneumonia. So no. Doctors were not ignoring pneumonia. Good grief. And this idea of ventilators killing people sort of sounds like a conspiracy theory. I suppose air filters through and it's possible, but what were doctors supposed to do once the ability to breath on one's own went down too much?



And Gramps, you're just a grumpy old man. There. I said it.

[Celeste Chalfonte]

If you don't know anybody against taking reasonable precautions, then it sounds like you might be living in a bubble out west. Maybe.

Doctors have been acknowledging pneumonia the entire time. That's because COVID itself doesn't lead out to death. It usually has to cause something else to happen. I remember when this all started hearing about people in the hospital with COVID/pneumonia. So no. Doctors were not ignoring pneumonia. Good grief. And this idea of ventilators killing people sort of sounds like a conspiracy theory. I suppose air filters through and it's possible, but what were doctors supposed to do once the ability to breath on one's own went down too much?



And Gramps, you're just a grumpy old man. There. I said it.

Look, Lanie, you clearly don't understand. Frostbit can explain this better if he has the patience, which I'm rapidly losing.

There are 2 types of pneumonia. The one originally associated with COVID (which is also a common hospital-acquired complication of the actual admitting diagnosis) is viral pneumonia. It's a known risk when people have a compromised immune system and/or pulmonary problems. It's also the complication people frequently die of, because viral illnesses aren't treatable with antibiotics, or often with any sort of treatment; you hydrate the patient and give supportive therapy until it runs its course or kills them.

Bacterial pneumonia is caused by bacteria being introduced into the lungs. It's preventable and treatable. The problem is, hospitals are notorious for failing to maintain adequate safeguards against hospital-acquired bacterial infections, especially when understaffed and the staff is stressed and overworked.

Some examples that I have personally observed or experienced:

As I mentioned in another thread, for some unknown administrative reason, after a minor surgery, I was placed on a medical ward rather than a surgical ward. This was a problem, because I then had an open wound, and the other patient in the room had an as-yet-undiagnosed illness which caused her to have violent diarrhea, and her family was emptying the bedside toilet into the flush toilet in our shared bathroom. This means that particles of fecal matter were being spread all over the room and bathroom. Great recipe for a wound infection, which I fortunately avoided.

In Florida, Nova was hospitalized for what turned out to be dangerously low sodium, a result of overcompliance with his renal diet. In the ER, a nurse put on gloves, then handled the curtain around the bed (fabric is great at harboring airborne bacteria), and then was about to catheterize Nova without changing those gloves (until I insisted he change). A urinary catheter is a direct conduit for infection into the bloodstream. As it turned out, the catheter was for the convenience of the nursing staff, so they wouldn't have to bring him a urinal if he needed one. His doctor had never ordered it and was furious that it had been inserted, precisely because he had a weakened immune system, so it was an unnecessary risk.

During that same hospitalization, Nova was in ICU. The nurse on duty had to rush into another patient's cubicle because that patient had DT's, and was trying to pull his own catheter out. They subdued and sedated the guy with DT's, and after handling him (literally) and having their scrubs in contact with that patient's body, one of the nurses turned around and started to go back in Nova's cubicle. I had happened to see that the other patient's door was marked "MRSA Precautions." I blocked the door to Nova's cubicle and told him (the nurse) that he needed to change and scrub before touching another patient. Fortunately, at that minute, Nova's treating nephrologist entered the ICU and her orders carried a lot more weight than mine. She moved Nova out of ICU.

These things happen all the time. They happen more often and more severely when staff are under pressure, as they were during COVID. The ER and the ICU at our normally very good hospital here FAILED TO DIAGNOSE Nova's pleural infection, because all they saw was the COVID diagnosis. They loaded him up on steroids because they misread the chest x-ray as showing he had a "cytokine storm" because that's what they expected to see. Again, his nephrologist came in to see him, looked at his blood work, saw the white cell count, and called in an infectious disease consultant, who correctly diagnosed a pleural bacteria infection, and with antibiotics and a chest drain, he quickly began to improve. His nephrologist and the infectious disease doctor both told me he never actually had symptomatic COVID; he just had a positive test for exposure to it. The ER and ICU were treating THE WRONG DISEASE.

Now, I know that about 80% of that went right over your head, but the point is, COVID doesn't cause bacterial pneumonia unless somebody fucks up and introduces bacteria into the airways. Period. Full stop.

[Newman]

Look, Lanie, you clearly don't understand. Frostbit can explain this better if he has the patience, which I'm rapidly losing.

There are 2 types of pneumonia. The one originally associated with COVID (which is also a common hospital-acquired complication of the actual admitting diagnosis) is viral pneumonia. It's a known risk when people have a compromised immune system and/or pulmonary problems. It's also the complication people frequently die of, because viral illnesses aren't treatable with antibiotics, or often with any sort of treatment; you hydrate the patient and give supportive therapy until it runs its course or kills them.

Bacterial pneumonia is caused by bacteria being introduced into the lungs. It's preventable and treatable. The problem is, hospitals are notorious for failing to maintain adequate safeguards against hospital-acquired bacterial infections, especially when understaffed and the staff is stressed and overworked.

Some examples that I have personally observed or experienced:

As I mentioned in another thread, for some unknown administrative reason, after a minor surgery, I was placed on a medical ward rather than a surgical ward. This was a problem, because I then had an open wound, and the other patient in the room had an as-yet-undiagnosed illness which caused her to have violent diarrhea, and her family was emptying the bedside toilet into the flush toilet in our shared bathroom. This means that particles of fecal matter were being spread all over the room and bathroom. Great recipe for a wound infection, which I fortunately avoided.

In Florida, Nova was hospitalized for what turned out to be dangerously low sodium, a result of overcompliance with his renal diet. In the ER, a nurse put on gloves, then handled the curtain around the bed (fabric is great at harboring airborne bacteria), and then was about to catheterize Nova without changing those gloves (until I insisted he change). A urinary catheter is a direct conduit for infection into the bloodstream. As it turned out, the catheter was for the convenience of the nursing staff, so they wouldn't have to bring him a urinal if he needed one. His doctor had never ordered it and was furious that it had been inserted, precisely because he had a weakened immune system, so it was an unnecessary risk.

During that same hospitalization, Nova was in ICU. The nurse on duty had to rush into another patient's cubicle because that patient had DT's, and was trying to pull his own catheter out. They subdued and sedated the guy with DT's, and after handling him (literally) and having their scrubs in contact with that patient's body, one of the nurses turned around and started to go back in Nova's cubicle. I had happened to see that the other patient's door was marked "MRSA Precautions." I blocked the door to Nova's cubicle and told him (the nurse) that he needed to change and scrub before touching another patient. Fortunately, at that minute, Nova's treating nephrologist entered the ICU and her orders carried a lot more weight than mine. She moved Nova out of ICU.

These things happen all the time. They happen more often and more severely when staff are under pressure, as they were during COVID. The ER and the ICU at our normally very good hospital here FAILED TO DIAGNOSE Nova's pleural infection, because all they saw was the COVID diagnosis. They loaded him up on steroids because they misread the chest x-ray as showing he had a "cytokine storm" because that's what they expected to see. Again, his nephrologist came in to see him, looked at his blood work, saw the white cell count, and called in an infectious disease consultant, who correctly diagnosed a pleural bacteria infection, and with antibiotics and a chest drain, he quickly began to improve. His nephrologist and the infectious disease doctor both told me he never actually had symptomatic COVID; he just had a positive test for exposure to it. The ER and ICU were treating THE WRONG DISEASE.

Now, I know that about 80% of that went right over your head, but the point is, COVID doesn't cause bacterial pneumonia unless somebody fucks up and introduces bacteria into the airways. Period. Full stop.

Those are pretty scary experiences. Thanks for typing them out. They should embolden consumers to be on guard and assertive. There's a strong faction of my wife's family that is quite the opposite, to my wife's exasperation. There's also a broad suspicion that many hospitals now are largely staffed nearer the ground level with foreign workers who don't have the same training and expectations as American-trained personnel. I'm assured this is true, but I don't know it first hand.

Meanwhile, this association of pneumonia and COVID, particularly Lanie's rendering, reminds me of the connection, maybe 25 years ago, of AIDS and pneumonia. It seemed at the time that "pneumonia" was a decorous euphemism in the obituary, often as not, but I was told pneumonia was simply an opportunistic infection and the chief proximate cause of death. I don't remember at the time that hospital procedures were so commonly suspect as they are now.

I wonder how that recollection measures up against the facts.

[Gramps]

I object to stupidity'

[Lanie]

Look, Lanie, you clearly don't understand. Frostbit can explain this better if he has the patience, which I'm rapidly losing.

There are 2 types of pneumonia. The one originally associated with COVID (which is also a common hospital-acquired complication of the actual admitting diagnosis) is viral pneumonia. It's a known risk when people have a compromised immune system and/or pulmonary problems. It's also the complication people frequently die of, because viral illnesses aren't treatable with antibiotics, or often with any sort of treatment; you hydrate the patient and give supportive therapy until it runs its course or kills them.

Bacterial pneumonia is caused by bacteria being introduced into the lungs. It's preventable and treatable. The problem is, hospitals are notorious for failing to maintain adequate safeguards against hospital-acquired bacterial infections, especially when understaffed and the staff is stressed and overworked.

Some examples that I have personally observed or experienced:

As I mentioned in another thread, for some unknown administrative reason, after a minor surgery, I was placed on a medical ward rather than a surgical ward. This was a problem, because I then had an open wound, and the other patient in the room had an as-yet-undiagnosed illness which caused her to have violent diarrhea, and her family was emptying the bedside toilet into the flush toilet in our shared bathroom. This means that particles of fecal matter were being spread all over the room and bathroom. Great recipe for a wound infection, which I fortunately avoided.

In Florida, Nova was hospitalized for what turned out to be dangerously low sodium, a result of overcompliance with his renal diet. In the ER, a nurse put on gloves, then handled the curtain around the bed (fabric is great at harboring airborne bacteria), and then was about to catheterize Nova without changing those gloves (until I insisted he change). A urinary catheter is a direct conduit for infection into the bloodstream. As it turned out, the catheter was for the convenience of the nursing staff, so they wouldn't have to bring him a urinal if he needed one. His doctor had never ordered it and was furious that it had been inserted, precisely because he had a weakened immune system, so it was an unnecessary risk.

During that same hospitalization, Nova was in ICU. The nurse on duty had to rush into another patient's cubicle because that patient had DT's, and was trying to pull his own catheter out. They subdued and sedated the guy with DT's, and after handling him (literally) and having their scrubs in contact with that patient's body, one of the nurses turned around and started to go back in Nova's cubicle. I had happened to see that the other patient's door was marked "MRSA Precautions." I blocked the door to Nova's cubicle and told him (the nurse) that he needed to change and scrub before touching another patient. Fortunately, at that minute, Nova's treating nephrologist entered the ICU and her orders carried a lot more weight than mine. She moved Nova out of ICU.

These things happen all the time. They happen more often and more severely when staff are under pressure, as they were during COVID. The ER and the ICU at our normally very good hospital here FAILED TO DIAGNOSE Nova's pleural infection, because all they saw was the COVID diagnosis. They loaded him up on steroids because they misread the chest x-ray as showing he had a "cytokine storm" because that's what they expected to see. Again, his nephrologist came in to see him, looked at his blood work, saw the white cell count, and called in an infectious disease consultant, who correctly diagnosed a pleural bacteria infection, and with antibiotics and a chest drain, he quickly began to improve. His nephrologist and the infectious disease doctor both told me he never actually had symptomatic COVID; he just had a positive test for exposure to it. The ER and ICU were treating THE WRONG DISEASE.

Now, I know that about 80% of that went right over your head, but the point is, COVID doesn't cause bacterial pneumonia unless somebody fucks up and introduces bacteria into the airways. Period. Full stop.

So, I don't need your patience or anything else. That's being condescending, but I'm used to that out of you. Actually, I'm used to that out of most of you.

I don't think you should recommend Frostbit to me because I honestly see his COVID posts as gaslighting. Saying a million Americans didn't really die of COVID because many of them had other conditions is gaslighting, full stop. I'm not saying those other conditions don't matter because they certainly do, but COVID was the straw that broke the camel's back in a lot of cases and he doesn't see it that way.

You can get pneumonia from COVID. I'm sure my medical link won't mean anything, but here you go.

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/24002-covid-pneumonia

It mentions other pneumonia one can get through a weakened immune system as you mentioned above. I'm sorry that Nova went through that and went through incompetent medical staff. I really am. I have a sick mom. I have a sick friend. I had another sick friend whose organs started going to pot two or three months after he got COVID, but I'm sure deniers will see that as a coincidence, since he already had serious problems. He had parents with serious medical problems and the hospitals screwed up with them too. I am very familiar with how ridiculous hospitals can be with people and how hung up they can be on one idea when they should look at something else. I really am sorry that Nova went through what he did.

[Celeste Chalfonte]

So, I don't need your patience or anything else. That's being condescending, but I'm used to that out of you. Actually, I'm used to that out of most of you.

I don't think you should recommend Frostbit to me because I honestly see his COVID posts as gaslighting. Saying a million Americans didn't really die of COVID because many of them had other conditions is gaslighting, full stop. I'm not saying those other conditions don't matter because they certainly do, but COVID was the straw that broke the camel's back in a lot of cases and he doesn't see it that way.

You can get pneumonia from COVID. I'm sure my medical link won't mean anything, but here you go.

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/24002-covid-pneumonia

It mentions other pneumonia one can get through a weakened immune system as you mentioned above. I'm sorry that Nova went through that and went through incompetent medical staff. I really am. I have a sick mom. I have a sick friend. I had another sick friend whose organs started going to pot two or three months after he got COVID, but I'm sure deniers will see that as a coincidence, since he already had serious problems. He had parents with serious medical problems and the hospitals screwed up with them too. I am very familiar with how ridiculous hospitals can be with people and how hung up they can be on one idea when they should look at something else. I really am sorry that Nova went through what he did.

I give up. If you had read your own link (or were capable of understanding it), you'd know that the article title refers to a VIRAL PNEUMONIA. Yes, some people died of "COVID pneumonia," caused by the virus, just as people die all the time of various other viral pneumonias. Newman mentioned an AIDS-associated pneumonia. That was pneumocystis pneumonia (a fungal infection), and it was fatal to people with AIDS because the HIV had killed their immune system. People without AIDS walk around with pneumocystis fungi in their systems all the time, and don't get pneumonia, or don't die from it. Bacterial pneumonia doesn't float around in droplets, like a virus, or as spores, like a fungus. It is mechanically introduced, in the case of COVID patients, by instruments such as ventilators that are placed directly into the airway.

Now, that can happen. It shouldn't, but no hospital operates at 100% sterile conditions. What is inexcusable and what killed a lot of people was that, having introduced the bacteria via respirators, medical personnel, pursuant to government standards, failed to investigate the cause, failed to recognize the difference, and FAILED TO TREAT. bacterial pneumonia. They treated patients as if COVID were the only cause of their illness.

Neither I, nor Frostbit, nor the article I posted claims that COVID caused no deaths. We do claim, and evidence supports, that many people died of infections not caused by COVID, because COVID was the presumptive diagnosis and the only one treated.

I also assert that the excessive and unreasonable "COVID precautions," which were used to bar all family members or other patient advocates from hospitals entirely, contributed hugely to COVID-era deaths, by depriving patients of their advocates and the people who were most knowledgeable of their medical conditions.

This was a bungled health crisis.

[Gramps]

We do claim, and evidence supports, that many people died of infections not caused by COVID, because COVID was the presumptive diagnosis and the only one treated.

and used to inflate the covid death count to keep a foot on our throats